Talk:Main Page

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New

Reading list appears twice with the books and events being split --Gregb^talk 17:14, 8 April 2021 (UTC) Consolidated the 'welcome' pages and ensure there are just the three entry points for now - discovery, contribution, and field guide --Gregb^talk 18:30, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Main Page Navigation

Every main page link needs a decision justification to earn the prime real estate. If you had to bet $10,000 on which might be the most useful links to have, what might they be? -----  kitt ^(TALK)  12:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I have made the changes discussed in yesterday's session in the group created to talk about the Main Page. We have decided to wait until the issue of not being able to have mobile-friendly is solved, before having more User Journeys. So we've decided to start with "Discover" (for novice), "Contribute" (for editors), "EU Field Guide" (Assumed among the first visitors). --Corinalupu ^(talk) 09:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

With every decision such as this it is helpful to have a decision log to justify why the decision was made. Especially when these meetings are exclusionary by nature due to time zones. Please provide reasoning for using the word Discover over the phrase Start Here. Especially when Start Here pages are a "thing" on the internet that more and more people are becoming familiar with, when "Discover" pages in my mind are an unknown quantity and do not serve the purpose we are aiming for. To be clear, at this point, I'm inclined to revert the use of the word Discover. -----  kitt ^(TALK)  06:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

kitt I can imagine your frustration to feel excluded due to time zones scheduling. We didn't hold a log, but I can run you through the reasoning. We've start with the concern to make the wiki's content accessible for multiple Users and needs, and thought about how to accommodate that. You can see the mural board created to sum up those concerns and thoughts. Ideally having a page with such design for multiple User Journeys seemed great. But, it is not technically doable for now. The question has been raised in the technical issues page. Having a "Start here" link, like you've suggested, also seemed a good idea, to have a page with multiple User Journeys behind that click. But, because that would take time and there is that technical issue to be solved, as a first step, it was decided to reduce the scope and start with the three boxes "Discover", "Contribute", "EU Field Guide". --Corinalupu ^(talk) 12:42, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

It's a good prompt kitt as this Wiki is moving so fast with so many people actively contributing. Agree with the rationale Corinalupu has outlined above. All I can add is, we also discussed putting this out for a priority call by Dave regarding strategy for the Wiki, and having this inform which journey's were 'higher' priority and should therefore occupy prime screen real-estate. Feeling was his time is pressured so to crack on. The above 3 EU, Novice and Editor were felt to be the 3 primary journeys (see original post below in this talk page for other secondary journey's suggested). As the 3 primary, that was why to accommodate them on the front page. It does however, perhaps conveniently, occur to me that.. 'Discover' is a good word.. if I am a novice, or a visitor with varying degrees of knowledge about Cynefin or complexity more generally, wanting to find something out - Discover probably covers many of these visitor journeys. If I have something very specific in mind as a visitor I may just want to search for or see a simple list and find it myself.. other than that.. so.. if the page 'Discover' navigates to can be designed to be extensible.. then more journey's can be incorporated as time (and effort or energy affords us. If there is anything you would like to input for the sessions if time zones don't work for you, please do post to the Mural, or on here.. ---- Iain_P (talk) 14:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Main Page Content

Orientation

Cynefin isn't as well known as Wikipedia. Yet!. So readers need a brief introduction to know what's going on. What are the top questions in someone's mind when landing here? -----  kitt ^(TALK)  12:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

News

See Wikipedia main page for the maximum amount of news content Dave wants on the Cynefin main page. -----  kitt ^(TALK)  12:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Featured Article

See Wikipedia main page for an example of a featured article. Dave would like to see a Cynefin featured article on the Cynefin main page. My suggestion for the first few months would be to make a short list of the most well constructed introductory method pages and rotate through these. -----  kitt ^(TALK)  12:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

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SEO

Yesterday (5pm GMT), nine editors (including cat herders) met to consider the homepage and site navigation. There's now a Mural Board for planning changes to the homepage. Next meeting on Tuesday 23rd March at 5pm GMT. Would be good to have blocks as an option before then! ---- Singleblade^✆✉ 07:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@Greg Good to know! Was SEO part of the considerations? (That is, ensuring the main page ranks highly for key search terms "Cynefin" and "Dave Snowden" etc) ---  kitt ^(TALK)  07:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

kitt SEO was not discussed in that session about the Main Page. That being said, I have searched the word "Cynefin" in Google and Duckduckgo through Tor Browser (to avoid localization and previous search history) and the wiki is already on the 4th page on Google and the 2rd on Duckduckgo. From a purely lexical perspective, I think there is no need to increase the number of occurences of the word in the pages, wiki being purely content based, it will provide that by itself. But what could help with the SEO, is having quality backlinks from Wikipedia, Youtube or any other site that already has a lot of visitors. --Corinalupu ^(talk) 12:54, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Search engine listing

This site is designed to be the authority on Cynefin. See the current view in the search engine listing image on the right, that is the first thing people will see when searching. Dave expressed a clear goal which is that we want the wiki to become the single source of truth. We need to make it as easy as possible for people to find what they are looking for in the first instance. SEO isn't just repeating search terms, it's optimising the entire experience so people stay on the site and their needs are met so they return. Once people land here we have an extremely short window to make it clear what the next step is. The home page is about designing enabling constraints. The more confusing words, links and options the harder it is for people to feel they belong here. Get them in the door with certainty - then you can confuse them! ;) SEO is mostly in the ordered domain. If we follow the steps, we will see the results. We don't need to make this complex. There are good practices we can follow. Yes backlinks is one factor, but only one. And if the home page isn't useful and relevant, backlinks are harder to get. Here are some SEO factors to consider. The .io domain is a country specific domain which can negatively affect global ranking, rather than using a .wiki domain for example, so we have to do more SEO work to ensure a global search audience. -----  kitt ^(TALK)  11:32, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

kitt I'm sorry, my answer was somewhat incomplete. SEO is in the ordered domain, I agree, but it is very bias for two reasons, n°1 towards money (money = fame = number of clicks), especially if you talk about Google. My take on it has always been: what's the minimum effort to apply in a specific case for the maximum impact? Knowing that what matters is :

• Speed: How fast can Google and users access your content? Hence metatags, other technical markers to help Google give meaning to content, optimization for lightness and compact code.
• Relevance: How can Google define if your content is relevant? Hence URL specificity and domain, key words and long tail in texts, in images, none duplicate content, quality backlinks, number of visits (for that, you need fresh content often). For users: how will Google define if users find content relevant? Because they stay on the site once they've landed somewhere on a page. Hence writing pertinent content, link pages together so they click, click and click more. That being the principle of a wiki, it helps.

So indeed, people who sell you SEO optimization are going to tell you that everything has the same importance, because they want to sell their services and spend time optimizing everything, but the truth is Google is bias towards money=fame=nbr of clicks. So indeed, all the technical aspects are n°1: URL, domain, code optimization, because it costs almost no effort to Google bots to check those. And about that, I'm going to assume that outside of the issue with the domain name, Wikimedia already optimizes the other technical aspects.

But then you have the importance of content in general, using headers and rich media (which everyone is working on). Having a relevant Main Page (we've been working on User Journey with this goal) that Get them in the door with certainty - then you can confuse them! ;) > I like that.

But, because of bias n°1, the key impact is quality backlinks from websites that already have a high volume of visits. And you want relevant site, because Google is going to know if you're just buying those or dropping them anywhere, because of the bounce rate (number of people who land on a page, find it irrelevant and live instantly). And you can also have backlinks to specific pages, not only to the homepage. I was thinking about the articles in Cognitive-Edge that could point to a page with more on one term, or Youtube video's linking to Cynefin's page, or linking The Filed Guide page somewhere with a partner.

Now bias n°2: after all of that, can you guarantee that, SEO being in the ordered domain, if we follow the steps, we will see the results? No, because what also matters a lot fore relevance is User's language browser, User's localization, User's cookies captured left and right while on the net and User's search history. Especially if User is using Google as a search engine + Google Chrome + is logged into their Google account = perfect combo to be spied on and having specific content fed to them in a specific order. And you have no way to control that, even if you did everything perfectly before, but SEO specialists won't insist on that one much. --Corinalupu ^(talk) 13:30, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

@Corina Google uses an iterating algorithm based on a wide range of factors that are designed to have a high probability of predicting relevance to the viewer. If you read or even skimmed the SEO list of factors I linked you to you would see that your points are irrelevant. We need high quality, well organised content, so let's get creating it. (P.S. Your comments about SEO consultants and Google sound a bit like ad hominem arguments.) -----  kitt ^(TALK)  05:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

kitt I'm saying that because at some point, I worked as one in agencies. So it can also be an attack ad hominem on myself if you want. That being said I agree with you on the content. --Corinalupu ^(talk) 07:19, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

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Anyone know how to give us responsive blocks on the homepage / landing pages? So they default to two columns but render in one for folk squinting at mobile devices? Wikidata appears to have cracked it. Can we import their template and adapt from that? See https://www.wikidata.org/ ---- Singleblade^✆✉ 13:25, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Copied to Talk:List of current issues---- Singleblade^✆✉ 13:25, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

We need to draft an about page for the wiki - see https://cynefin.io/wiki/Cynefin.io:About --Gregb^talk 14:39, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Dave 1. What Cynefin Centre stuff are you referring to? There was only the link near the main header when I edited.
2. Re the Cynefin intro - do you want anything at all for newbies to orient themselves to what's going on when they land on the main page?
3. What kind of news would you like - do you have an example link of content? ---  kitt ^(TALK)  07:18, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

It's OK I found it in the narrative - but it has been lost as a heading. Thoughts on news are no more than wikipedia is a good example, including featured article -----Snowded ^TALK 09:17, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Snowded, GregSpencer, Kitt, and GregBro:, I just want you all to know that MediaWiki extension like WikiSEO is not deployed yet. Also robots.txt and sitemap.xml (can be generate by AutoSitemap) does not exist on server. This needs to be done first. I did SEO testing in Google's LightHouse framework. See File:Screenshot 2021-04-14 at 1.57.18 AM.png, this wiki is doing extra ordinary in all parameters except SEO. So first we have to address internal issues. Since these issues are not listed on List of current issues, I am afraid to work on them by my own decision.--Jay0 (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Jay0:, surprised the performance is so high as the page load is quite slow at times. Do you have default robots.txt that can be added to the site?

@GregBro: No, I don't have robots.txt but I can generate it easily. As I said above, I can only work on issues listed on List of current issues so I can't start work if this is not listed on the issue page.--Jay0 (talk) 03:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Older

general

cynefin.net vs cynefin.io - updated the logo? - noted User:CarloAh has addressed --Gregb^talk 11:26, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Add a favicon to the site for browsers - --GregBro (talk) 08:09, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Added to technical task list and please sign your posts on talk pages! -----Snowded ^TALK 14:28, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Mobile responsiveness apparently not configured (installed?). Would br highly beneficial for usability. -----Luca Orlassino^T-A-L-K 14:05, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:List of current issues. -----Luca Orlassino^T-A-L-K 14:04, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

New users

Mcheveldave is there something we can set so that people can just register? and we need someone to set up the templates! ---Snowded ^TALK 10:05, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Cost of protecting from spam too high so we will manage manual set up for the moment -----Snowded ^TALK 19:34, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Spelling

Do we use English or American spelling ---Snowded ^TALK

Taken from the MediaWiki Manual:Coding conventions page: JohnGrant (talk) 07:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

"Preferred spelling: It is just as important to have consistent spelling in the UI and codebase as it is to have consistent UI. By long standing history, 'American English' is the preferred spelling for English language messages, comments, and documentation."

Personal opinion, search engines and automated language translators should be smart enough that the distinction shouldn't be a concern. In terms of consistency, perhaps follow the MediaWiki convention? JohnGrant (talk) 07:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia allows both and most European articles are in British English but interested in other views ---Snowded ^TALK 09:17, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Wiki text search does not seem to be as smart as search engines: e.g. searching for "behavior" and "behaviour" return different results. Therefore, consistence would be beneficial. --LucaOrlassino (talk) 06:44, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Content mentioning style conventions has been moved to the style sheet ---  kitt ^(TALK)  06:55, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Added Reading list here for now as it was orphaned - --GregBro (talk) 10:36, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Archive

<-- Please relocate very old content below this line -->

Side Navi Menu

Does anyone else find it really annoying that the side navi doesn't have more menus and you have to constantly go back to the Main page to navigate around? ie. It's a hub and spoke design, can't move around easily within the pages.. Iain_P (talk) 20:13, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Work in progress Main Page User Journey

The initial categories on the main page will be 'EU Field Guide', 'Contribute' (editors) and 'Discover' (novices)

Welcome to Cynefin.io

The 189 page, open-source Naturalising Sense-Making wiki that almost anyone can edit

Also home to Cynefin® Centre Programmes

Introduction & Overview • Navigating Cynefin.io • Help Pages • All Pages

By using this site, you agree to the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy • Cynefin® is a registered trademark of Cognitive Edge Pte Ltd.

Are you here to learn ?

EU Field Guide concepts

Quick dive in

Deep dive

Are you here to edit ?

Directory / (Mobile-Friendly Directory)

Editor Main Page

Editor Sign Up

Are you here to navigate your own way ?

Assemblies Books, events etc. Cases Complex facilitation Concepts

Definitions Framework articles Glossary incl. translations List of methods Principles, metaphors & checklists

Support material & references Reading list Training SenseMaker® User guides Forums for SenseMaker®

---

Comments about Work in progress Main Page User Journey:
I wanted to account for most of the Users we've listed on Mural, so I've added the three questions (here to learn, here to edit, here to navigate your own way) as a first filter.

Corinalupu I understand and like your thinking, the grey boxes drew my eye and the text above them and in between the two rows of boxes got lost (may just be me and first glance). If we think someone coming to edit would be more persistent to navigate, we could put these options 'behind' a click..? ie. 'that almost anyone can edit' (make edit a link?) and tuck the 3 boxes on an 'edit landing page' (i.e. that isnt the main landing page)? Iain_P (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Corinalupu On the headers how about 'Here to learn?' | 'Have read the EU Field Guide?' or 'Want to implement the EU Field Guide' (bit leading me thinks) | 'New to Cynefin' | 'Here to learn more' or 'Learn more' or 'Continue learning'. For navigation heading, how about 'Know your way around already?'. I've come back to this again and I do like the current page where the boxes standalone ie. don't need a descriptor like 'Here to learn'. Iain_P (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Priority call from @Dave is my view on the last of 3 navi grey boxes at the top of the landing page.

* Question - Who do we want to accommodate more, Editors by ease of navigation to Edit page(s) OR accommodate 'Further learners' - those who are not complete novices but still need a hand on where to go so we don't risk losing them?

* If Edit does not have a navi box, an option (there will be others) would be to link to Edit page(s) from the text 'almost anyone can edit' in the second line below Cynefin.io

* It's a priority call for me as if a main aim of @Dave is more editors, then it should / must have prime real-estate. This for me would drive occupying 1 navi box - singular - so that the first 2 navi boxes accommodate 2 other prime user journeys (EU and complete novices). Iain_P (talk) 19:26, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I created the Editor main page as a way to put all editor content in a clear guide there. (Rather than mixed up with the reader content)

• One large button on the Main page linking to the Editor main page is all that's needed navigation wise here, in my view.
• Potentially remove the sign up rego button and instead, create a google form or something where people can apply to be an editor from the Editor main page.
• The less distracting links, the better for the home page. Every link needs to earn its right to be there.
• I see the key factor to getting more consistent active editors is the onboarding process. -----  kitt ^(TALK)  10:50, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

The "learn" part is the one related to Specific User Journey. Here was my logic behind the three options:

• EU Field guide: aimed for people who want to know more about the content in the Field guide. It could be linked to the existing page of the Field Guide.

Corinalupu I like and agree with your thinking. Just comments above about suggesting title text. Iain_P (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

• Quick dive in: aimed for novice, people curious to know more, beginner practitioner, being consultants or not. They are in the discovery phase.

Question: what page would that be linked to? The page Naturalising sense-making is a good start. Do we want to create another costumed page? If yes, what would be the content?

Corinalupu I like and agree with your thinking. Just comments above about suggesting title text. Iain_P (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

• Deep dive: aimed for people who already know a little bit about Cynefin or some other concepts. I don't know if it's pertinent or not, but I think it would be best to differentiate them as such:

Solutions: Consultants or not, who have an issue an are looking for methods/techniques/frameworks;

Examples/cases/stories: Consultants or not who are curious to test or see how other have applied concepts of the field, or how relevant it is for them;

Sensemaker: Consultants or not, who want to know more about Sensemaker and how it is linked to other concepts of the field.

Corinalupu Two options, we have an monitor traffic.. or we don't have and move forward based on analytics if we have it. But.. 3 tiles looks nice, so I'm thinking first one. i.e. try and remove if low traffic. Actual content different conversation, would have to think more. Iain_P (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Other Users:

• People who have a specific background (like Agile): we have talked about having an entry for them, but I wonder how pertinent and also doable a Journey through the wiki pages with the angle of Agility is.
• People who want something specific or only one type of concept, like Framework, they can click on the specific link at the end of the page or look for a page with the search option.
• People who want an overview (mind map): A link could be added in the last section (Are you here to navigate your own way ?) towards it.

Corinalupu Variations of 'Here to learn more' (ie. Deep dive option?) similar comments about try them and remove if low traffic? Iain_P (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

--Corinalupu ^(talk) 15:00, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Became irrelevant --Corinalupu ^(talk) 09:37, 24 March 2021 (UTC)